Forum and Videos - Amor Vincit Omnia

Forum on the Spiritual Life
 
HomeHome  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  Log in  

Share | 
 

 Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Jean
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 62
Registration date : 2007-03-12

PostSubject: Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart   Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:58 am

Dear all,

Please feel free to write your questions here.

Thank you.

Jean


Last edited by Jean on Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:53 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://amorvincit.cultureforum.net
S.Donna



Number of posts : 1
Registration date : 2009-03-06

PostSubject: Question about other types of Prayer   Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:53 am

I am wondering if the manner of prayer described in the Cloud of Unknowing and in the Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence are also considered Prayer of the Heart? Are they just different approaches to the Prayer of the Heart or are they totally different types of prayer?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jean
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 62
Registration date : 2007-03-12

PostSubject: Re: Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart   Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:54 pm

S.Donna wrote:
I am wondering if the manner of prayer described in the Cloud of Unknowing and in the Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence are also considered Prayer of the Heart? Are they just different approaches to the Prayer of the Heart or are they totally different types of prayer?

Dear S. Donna,
thank you for your question.
We may say that every Christian author who intend to speak about prayer will in a way or in another speak about the Prayer of the heart.
Many, unwillingly, remain "vague" about the exact "know how", or they take for granted that with their words it will be enough for everybody to understand what they are supposed to do in order to worship "in Spirit and in Truth".
Now, if we read them, and don't get the dense aspects that are "implicit" in their explanation/presentation, we might still not be "lifting up" our heart!
Let me take a very common example: the exercise of the Presence of God promoted by Br. Lawrence. Many persons think that they have to "think" that they are in the Presence of God, or that they have to put themselves in the Presence of God and that will be enough! Maybe for some it will be enough, since they will do it with all their being and all their heart, but the majority will be doing it with their mind and that's it.

The difference is huge, it is like sitting in front of a swimming pool and swimming in it! Huge! Immersion, touch, contact, pouring Himself in us etc..

What we need to do is not to be "slaves" of the words of an author, but to try to get to the point of grasping what is meant inside of the words, the real elements of the "movement" of the prayer of the heart, learning to discern in us to do what depends on us! There is a part that depends on us, that is our way to show to God that we want to love Him (using our time, energy and freedom) and want to do so with all our being: offering ourselves to Him, or: putting all ourselves in His hands.

Let me show you for instance two prayers of different saints that implicitly embody this movement:
The first is the essential part of the Act of offering of saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus:

"In order to live in an act of perfect Love, I OFFER MYSELF AS A VICTIM OF HOLOCAUST TO YOUR MERCIFUL LOVE, asking You to consume me incessantly, allowing the waves of infinite tenderness shut up within You to overflow into my soul, and that thus I may become a martyr of Your Love, O my God!
May this martyrdom, after having prepared me to appear before You, finally cause me to die and may my soul take its flight without any delay into the eternal embrace of Your Merciful Love.
I want, O my Beloved, at each beat of my heart to renew this offering to You an infinite number of times, until the shadows having disappeared I may be able to tell You of my Love in an Eternal Face to Face!"

The second if from Charles de Foucauld:

"Father, I abandon myself into your hands; do with me what you will. Whatever you may do, I thank you: I am ready for all, I accept all. Let only your will be done in me, and in all your creatures. I wish no more than this, O Lord.
Into your hands I commend my soul; I offer it to you with all the love of my heart, for I love you, Lord, and so need to give myself, to surrender myself into your hands, without reserve, and with boundless confidence, for you are my Father." (Charles de Foucauld)

So, to sum it up, we need to read really what is implicit in the texts of the saints. Here is what saint Thérèse says about the experience of the saints:

"All the saints have understood this, and more especially those who filled the world with the light of the Gospel teachings. Was it not in prayer that St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. John of the Cross, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis, St. Dominic, and so many other famous Friends of God have drawn out this divine science which delights the greatest geniuses? A scholar has said: “Give me a lever and a, fulcrum and 1 will lift the world.”. What Archimedes was not able to obtain, for his request was not directed by God and was only made from a material viewpoint, the saints have obtained [36 v] in all its fullness. The Almighty has given them as fulcrum: HIMSELF ALONE; as lever: PRAYER which bums with a fire of love. And it is in this way that they have lifted the world; it is in this way that the saints still militant lift it, and that, until the end of time, the saints to come will lift it." (Manuscript C, 36r°-v°)

This is an short explanation of the Prayer of heart, and as you see, she says: "all the saint have understood it".



In this course we are trying to go from the implicit to the explicit, because prayer has it's elements, it's conditions and we may just stay there, in the Presence of God, with hardly any supernatural effect in us, like the one who dreams of swimming and never touched the water! He can say: I am in front of the water, but.. in the end… he never or seldom touched it.

So coming back to your question: "Are they just different approaches to the Prayer of the Heart or are they totally different types of prayer?" Prayer per se, any prayer, is the "worship "in Spirit and in Truth", and this requires to have our heart "in God" ("lift up your hearts" in order to really pray). This is way "the prayer of the heart" is "the common denominator" of all prayers, because the movement we are learning impregnates all prayers: the Mass, the Divine office, the Rosary etc. It is all together the "common denominator" and a specific time (half hour, an hour) we dedicate to Jesus (being immersed in him). It is also the common denominator of our 24 hours, in the sense that we are called to enter in the Kingdom of God, the Father's house, the Trinity. This movement allows us to enter in God, receive him, live from Him, be transformed by him. Can you imagine a prayer that is done "out from God"!? so you can guess how strategic is this movement that allows us to be "in the Son and in the Spirit" (in Truth and in Spirit). These are the worshipers that God wants (John 4,21-24).

I hope I replied to your question.

Don't hesitate to come back.

Jean

PS If you allude to some precise passages in the cloud of the unknowing, please do mention them to me.


Last edited by Jean on Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:55 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://amorvincit.cultureforum.net
Jean
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 62
Registration date : 2007-03-12

PostSubject: Re: Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart   Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:17 pm

Dear Jean,
Greetings from Rome ! Last Saturday I attended your lectures on prayer of the heart. I have been trying to reflect on your diagram. I understood much of what you were saying. But it is easier to understand than to practise.
How do I give myself completely ?
Do I have to lift my heart always during prayer ?
Do I have to make an act of complete surrender each time I pray ?
Is it not enough to sit in silence, the Lord knows my desire for him, will he not draw me to himself ?
Thank you in anticipation. See you next Saturday.
X.

Dear X,
Thank you very much for your message sent through the Forum.
Thank you for your effort, trying to practise. And thank you as well for your question. It is a practical question, many questions in fact in one.

It is true that if we are plasticising it together, one to one, it would be much easier to "find out" interiorly.

I perfectly understand the difficulty of the practise, this is why we have this course! Very rarely authors address the issue of practicality, therefore it looks very obscure, and is left ad the discretion of the persons! But since the quality of the practise is decisive for the fruits it can bare or not bare, one needs to address it. It can make a huge difference in spiritual life. A question like your last question shows exactly that issue: no, it is not enough just to remain! If the act is not done, we remain 2 persons, God and us, but if the act is done, the contact is established and He can pour Himself in us. The difference is as equal as switching the light on and of: one way the electricity is going in the wires, and the other way, there is not electricity. Our "Electricity" here is the Holy Spirit.

Now, since the movement is expressed and perceived by each one of us, and each saint and Doctor, in a different way, we need to "re-cognise" it in us. There is a theoretical aspect in the explanation of the movement, or act to do, and there is a practise. In an email, we can only do a "theoretical aspect" of the act. For the practical we can see it, together.

I- "how do I give myself completely?"

Excellent question.
First as a Christian, and as a religious (maybe you are a Priest as well), you had the opportunity to give your life to God, without any condition, surrendering to His will. Let us remember for instance the moment when a religious person is making the final vows, laying on the floor during the litany of the Saints. So let me say, that in a way you already gave yourself to God, to Jesus. But it is true as well, that, apart from the moment where you pronounce your vows, there is a definite clear moment or act through which and in which you give yourself. But still, as a matter of fact, you gave yourself. This makes it difficult to determine, to grasp the "how to give myself"!

We give ourselves with no conditions. We give ourselves totally, all what is ours, all our life, present, past and future. We put ourselves in the Hands of God.

It is an act. Imagine yourself holding your own heart (just imagine it): and imagine you are giving your heart to God, imagine that you are physically doing it: giving your heart. Your heart encapsulates all your being. So by giving your heart, you are giving everything.

You can say it, it helps you, say it in a prayer: "God, Jesus, I give you myself, without any condition, let your Spirit take all my being, transform it in you".

You have many prayers that some saints said: Here are 2 of them: (notice that the first part is more important, because it encapsulates the "gift of ourselves". The first is the essential part of the Act of offering of saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus:

"In order to live in an act of perfect Love, I OFFER MYSELF AS A VICTIM OF HOLOCAUST TO YOUR MERCIFUL LOVE, asking You to consume me incessantly, allowing the waves of infinite tenderness shut up within You to overflow into my soul, and that thus I may become a martyr of Your Love, O my God!
May this martyrdom, after having prepared me to appear before You, finally cause me to die and may my soul take its flight without any delay into the eternal embrace of Your Merciful Love.
I want, O my Beloved, at each beat of my heart to renew this offering to You an infinite number of times, until the shadows having disappeared I may be able to tell You of my Love in an Eternal Face to Face!"

The second if from Charles de Foucauld:

"Father, I abandon myself into your hands; do with me what you will. Whatever you may do, I thank you: I am ready for all, I accept all. Let only your will be done in me, and in all your creatures. I wish no more than this, O Lord.
Into your hands I commend my soul; I offer it to you with all the love of my heart, for I love you, Lord, and so need to give myself, to surrender myself into your hands, without reserve, and with boundless confidence, for you are my Father." (Charles de Foucauld)

As you see, the words of these two acts can give you an idea of that gift of yourself to God, its conditions. The words we say can help us express this movement, can help us do it, because words are deeds, they are true acts. So if you say to God: I give myself to you, you are doing it. But maybe you can reflect on the meaning of the words and the implications.

Now, in order to help you grasp better the act, here is another insight that can help you, given to us by saint Louis Marie Grignon de Montfort. It brings to the fore the "act" or the "movement" of offering, surrendering ourselves in the Hands of God. In order to help us understand in what this act consists, Montfort invites us to think – which God forbid – at what happens if one gives himself to the devil, obviously nobody would do it, but showing the opposite brings to the fore exactly what to do to God in this Act. Here is the passage of Grignon:

"The person who wishes to be led by this spirit of Mary:

1) Should renounce his own spirit, his own views and his own will before doing anything, for example, before making meditation, celebrating or attending Mass, before Communion. For the darkness of our own spirit and the evil tendencies of our own will and actions, good as they may seem to us, would hinder the holy spirit of Mary were we to follow them.

2) We should give ourselves up to the spirit of Mary to be moved and directed as she wishes. We should place and leave ourselves in her virginal hands, like a tool in the hands of a craftsman or a lute in the hands of a good musician. We should cast ourselves into her like a stone thrown into the sea. This is done easily and quickly by a mere thought, a slight movement of the will or just a few words as, “I renounce myself and give myself to you, my dear Mother.” And even if we do not experience any emotional fervor in this spiritual encounter it is none the less real. It is just as if a person with equal sincerity were to say - which God forbid! - “I give myself to the devil.” Even though this was said without feeling any emotion, he would no less really belong to the devil.

3) From time to time during an action and after it, we should renew this same act of offering and of union. The more we do so, the quicker we shall grow in holiness and the sooner we shall reach union with Christ, which necessarily follows upon union with Mary, since the spirit of Mary is the spirit of Jesus." ("True Devotion to Mary", n° 259)

As you see, just thinking of doing something so bad like "giving ourselves to the devil", gives us such a repulsion. Why? Because thinking of it, saying it, is doing it. This show you that doing this to God is actually realising something in you! This is the act. But the act ca be perfected, like I did in the last few minutes when I mentioned the little child running toward his mother and throwing himself in her arms.

Secondly, it is important to acknowledge that sometimes we might be doing it without know it. But a minimum of grasp is important. The certainty can only come from experience and having a one to one prayer.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://amorvincit.cultureforum.net
Jean
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 62
Registration date : 2007-03-12

PostSubject: Re: Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart   Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:17 pm

II- Do I have to lift my heart always during prayer ?

Lifting our heart is an act. It puts us in the Heart of Jesus. But it doesn't guaranty us that we will stay at length. This is why, especially for the beginner, one should gently repeat the act from time to time, in case he/she came out of the immersion in Jesus.

As well, during al types of prayer (the Masse, the Divine office, etc) one should be "in Jesus". Because it is "in Him" that our prayer "works". How could the Father hear us if we are outside of Him?

The more one practices this act, the more Jesus pours His Holy Spirit in us, and the more we dwell longer in Him. The goal of the spiritual life is the union with Jesus, and its fullness: the fullness of charity.

III- Do I have to make an act of complete surrender each time I pray ?

God is not "complicated". He takes what you give Him. If you gave yourself (the first times it is quite an effort, but then after we've done it, we don't need to) it is fine. But the act as such, yes, it should be repeated, but gently, peacefully. As I was saying: the more you do it, the more you remain close to God, the easier it is done, effortless. So of course doing the act in the begning looks like something to do it, but the more it goes, the more you practice it, the easier and gentler it becomes. We will be of course addressing all these issues during the course, and please please, don't hesitate to ask questions.

IV- Is it not enough to sit in silence, the Lord knows my desire for him, will he not draw me to himself ?

As I said earlier: no, it is not enough. Because staying in front of God doesn't mean having a contact with Him, and this happens for many reasons, but the main one is that the Prayer of love is a communication from God to you, that happens when you are immersed "in Him". But since you are free, you have your will, your freedom, you can and should use them in order to Love him: and to love is to give yourself to him, to throw yourself "in Him", to abandon yourself in His Hands. And this doesn't necessarily happen if you are just sitting there in silence. You just said: he knows my desire, but Jesus said: if you want to pray, that say it (even if God knows what you will say)! Saying, expressing, if for us, not for him, it gets us close! So if you desire him, if you are thirsty to drink from His Holy Spirit, then just say it, express your desire! By doing so, you are moving something in you, and this is the essence of prayer.

There are 2 areas of the respective freedom of God and of yours:

(diagram of God's freedom and ours (two circles with two dots))

Each half circle is the area of freedom. God is in blue and you are in red. God shows his love by leaving his centre (so to speak) and waiting for you at the meeting point. He used his freedom and expressed it (expressed Hi love to you) by coming toward you to meet you ("I am at the door and I am knocking" (Revelation: 3,20)). But He respects your freedom (he doesn't force your door), He doesn't invade your space and will never do it (only if you open He will enter). You think that since He knows your desire, he should cross as well your side of the distance, as shown below:

For Him, this is a lack of respect for your freedom, will, love etc. What He wants to see from you is true love, which is "showing", "expressing" your desire of Him, and this comes by saying your thirst to Him, throwing yourself in His arms! This opens the door, this brings you at the meeting point were real contact will happen!

There is a very big difference between just staying in the Presence of God, and putting oneself in His Hands. The difference is the same as having or not a real contact. The contact allows the outpouring. No contact, no outpouring. I am not saying that people who just stay like that have nothing, who am I to say it, but but, there is a big difference when a person knows how to do that act, and does it, it improves a lot its spiritual life. It is something we are called to learn! Saint Theresa of Avila insists a lot in the chapter 28 and 29 on learning how to do it until it becomes a sort of habit. We will be addressing all these issues during the course.

I hope dear X that my reply is helping a little bit. I perfectly know how "obscure" this practice can be. This is why I am offering this Course, in order to address it, and not to leave it in the realm of the unknown. I am sure with your help and with a bit of patience, God will give us all His help, because we all have good will and really want to receive Him.

Sincerely yours
Please do keep me in your prayers
Jean

PS The first commandment sheds a light on how to give ourselves to God:
How to give ourselves totally? The first commandments states that we need to love with "All" your heart, "all" your thoughts, "all" your energy etc.. to love is "to give ourselves". In a way he is asking us to give ourselves to him, this way!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://amorvincit.cultureforum.net
Jean
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 62
Registration date : 2007-03-12

PostSubject: Re: Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart   Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:54 am

x wrote:
I understand that is important for an experience of God not to be based on senses or emotions. Such an experience must be so much more touching and profound; not made up of things that are fleeting and superficial.
To enter into God, of course must be silent, and as has been recognized, is beyond feeling.
There one must rest, and trust that over time this silence will invade them with a sense of peace and love that can allow overflow into the rest of one's life.

But my fear is that in not feeling during practicing the beginning stages of Prayer of the Heart, I cannot distinguish between having given myself over to a movement surrendered into God, or rather having forced myself into the freedom of God without having surrendered anything.

I can say I have surrendered myself, that I want to have a relationship with God, and that does something; it is a beginning.
But it does not necessarily mean that I have opened myself, surrendered/given God anything of myself, made any concrete movement towards Him beyond the words.

In the end words are only words.

If I don't look into myself and discover who I am and what i am not, than I am really surrendering over nothing.

Or if I say I want to surrender but really do not allow myself to be vulnerable, by allowing God to show me where I need to be changed... then really nothing is being done.

So I could just as well be sitting in silence and relaxing.

My fear is that I sometimes (not always) can't tell the difference.

I am so loud in my thoughts, that I never shut up... and if I shut up I feel I am surrendering nothing, giving nothing of myself, giving no movement.

It all seems like a very esoteric experience.

I don't want to apply my own agenda to it, or think it into existence.

This would do great harm to something so sacred.

Maybe this isn't a question, as much as a need for guidance in order to grow through time and experience.

Thank you.

Dear x,

Many thanks for your message.

These questions you are asking come from the fact that, unwillingly, you split the Prayer of the heart from what comes first: "listening to Jesus daily, in the lectio divina, and putting into practice what he says." You are absolutely right to feel all these fears! And I do perfectly support that vision: taking only the prayer of the heart as an only way to reach God and surrender is completely wrong and can lead to illusions! Yes of course! This is why, repeatedly, I said that saint Theresa spend half of her book speaking about exercising evangelical virtues, and equivalently I said, for us today, we need to practise the lectio divina. Exactly as the Mass is shaped (in an anthropological way, to feed the soul and the sprit):

1- Listening to Jesus, to his words and putting them into practices (this allows us to really give ourselves and know that we did something) (nourishing the soul, and activating the main aspect of the gift of ourselves)

2- to receive his Body and Blood (nourishing mainly our spirit).

We ask ourselves: "Who can tell me that I am giving myself truly to Jesus?" It is by listening daily, to His words to me, and putting them into practice that I am sure that something real is happening in me, and that I am really giving myself to him and progressing in my spiritual life, and changing!

Many people do continue to go to Mass just for the Communion, or do spend hours in Adoration! Or do practice only the Prayer of the heart. But they forget the hour of Lectio divina, and how it is essential (because it boosts spiritual life and is the guaranty and security for real growth)! If not, yes, this becomes esoteric, because it is not based on the Rock: his words.

Let us go back to this fundamental verse that encapsulates both activities in it:
"If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14,23)

"To love" is "to give oneself", "to surrender". So the proof that we love, that we give ourselves to Him everyday is that we listen to his word and put it into practice! This is real! Because we see that we are making an effort to change, to put into practice new things in our life.

Only after that real practice the Prayer of the heart will take place, and will not carry any doubts with it, because, practicing his Word gives us confidence and strength. It is a real experience of change! So the silence and the Peace of that meeting (during the PH), of Him coming in us and dwelling in us, is not "doubt", or "just words".

It is what comes after and before the Prayer of the heart that makes it real, that opens our heart and allow Him to give himself to us during the prayer of the heart! If not, you have all the reasons to doubt and you are right.

"[God loves you and gives you his Word (general help)] If a man loves me, he will keep my word [lectio divina], and [because of it] my Father will love him [in a new way (special help)], and we will come to him and make our home with him [prayer of the heart]." (John 14,23)

I hope this helps
Jean
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://amorvincit.cultureforum.net
Jean
Admin
avatar

Number of posts : 62
Registration date : 2007-03-12

PostSubject: Re: Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart   Tue May 12, 2009 7:15 pm

From a person who didn't attend the Course I received this question:
"Also, a question, if you are able to provide any insights to this.... I've never been very clear on what exactly happens when we take Holy Communion. I know it is a mystery, of course. But what is happening? We already have the Indwelling... If think if I had a better understanding I could try to approach this sacrament more worthily. How would we connect those few moments with prayer of the heart? Any thoughts?"

I did explain it in my book (that is actually being translated into English). So if you read French or Italian you can have immediately the answer, if not, I will try to answer here shortly. I did explain it a little bit during the Course.
Prayer of the heart and Communion are in a way the same thing: they are both a Communication of Jesus to us, the gift of Himself to us!
When we practice the "Prayer of the heart", we are in fact going back to the last Communion we had and we reopening again the door that has been opened during Communion (He immerses us in Him) and we receive Him more and more, we are nourished by His Being. As you can see it under another topic here in the Forum, I put quotes from saint Teresa of Avila (Way of Perfection) where she mentions the relationship with Communion (chapters: 34-35) http://amorvincit.cultureforum.net/for-pust-students-only-f2/studying-the-prayer-of-the-heart-in-saint-theresa-of-avila-t12.htm

During Communion, while we give ourselves to Him, He gives Himself to us, totally: body, soul, spirit and divinity. A real mystical degree of union happens at that very moment:
His Heart (spirit) is united to our heart and nourishes it, his body is united to our body and nourishes it, his Soul is united to our Soul and nourishes it, his divinity fills and nourishes all our being, especially our roots (the "heart" or "spirit", or "mens"). We need to remember as well that we do receive the Holy Spirit during Communion because Jesus' created nature (body, soul and spirit) is filled with the Holy Spirit, and receiving him during Communion allows us as well to receive His Holy Spirit.
So Communion is a real degree of mystical union with Jesus. But, even though Jesus as Communion can transform us in Him, this happens only as much as we allow Him. Therefore there are conditions for a fruitful reception of Communion and as well for a fruitful practice of the Prayer of the heart.

The communication that happens (His being given to us) happens if we open our heart to receive Him. This is why we need to learn who to do the "movement of the prayer of the heart". This movement allows us to be taken by God and introduced in Him. This requires as well time: time to receive him, time to eat him, to be nourished by Him, time to "digest" him spiritually in us.
But if we do not give time to this Sacred Meeting (just after communion and during the Prayer of the heart time that we set up) the Communion doesn't bare fruits, doesn't deliver it's total efficiency..

Putting His word into practice (first table of the Mass, lectio divina) boosts as well the efficiency of the Communication that happens during Communion and after it (during the Prayer of the heart, when we re-open that moment of Communion).

Communion and the Prayer of the heart is a possibility for us the receive and be transformed all the Being of Jesus. It fosters our union with Him, roots us in him, makes us alive in Him, keeps the Flame of the Holy Spirit alive and active. They are the same in the sense that both require an opening of our being, the gift of ourselves to God. Both require this part of us: to learn how to receive Him in a fruitful way. Both require the total and renewed unconditional gift of ourselves (that is purity of heart).

I hope this helps.
Jean
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://amorvincit.cultureforum.net
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart   

Back to top Go down
 
Questions on the Course of the Prayer of the Heart
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Prayer Request for Fibroids and Cyst
» The Second Pillar of Islam: The Prayer
» Prayer in congregation is not obligatory for women
» The ruling on the Person who fasts but is lazy about performing the Prayer
» 'Flies in winter' questions

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Forum and Videos - Amor Vincit Omnia :: Sections : :: Prayer of the Heart-
Jump to: